Lawrence Martin was really close to having an outstanding article about the 2011 election fraud. Unfortunately he doesn’t seem to have a good grasp of the evidence against the Conservative Party of Canada, despite listing some of it in the words of the unlovable election goat Michael Sona. Martin slipped by claiming the proof isn’t close to being established. Contrary to that position are heaps of production orders pointing to the Conservatives’ CIMS database, and computer contact made with Racknine by a Conservative campaign worker who had access to that database, and Andrew Prescott’s account password late at night. Since Prescott didn’t upload to Racknine any other time we’re aware of, it stands to reason that he was at the controls while the mysterious Pierre Poutine was there as well. Otherwise, why did he get paid by the Conservatives?
If there was a widespread centrally co-ordinated effort aimed at vote-rigging, it would constitute one of the biggest political scandals the country has seen. But proof is far from being established.
Why can’t investigators learn who downloaded the phone list of non-Conservative voters in Guelph (and elsewhere) from CIMS? Well, we’ve been told that information was mysteriously destroyed by the Conservatives. Seems clean and ethical, eh? Maybe Fair and Balanced also? So why is Martin pulling punches by saying the proof is far from being established? Proof isn’t found in charges, it’s found in evidence. Worse, he then trots out the Conservative misdirection that Liberals fined by the CRTC are some how related to the misdirecting Poutine robocalls.
Saskboy's Abandoned Stuff 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/11/07/pol-liberal-mp-proposes-changes-to-election-law.html
So have you apologized (in writing) to Andrew Prescott for falsely accusing him of being Pierre Poutine?
Considering the over/under whelming ‘evidence’, it seems a lot of guessing is going on.
Are you itching to get banned again? Do you ever have anything useful to say? Both are rhetorical questions, don’t bother responding.
When you say “Do you ever have anything useful to say?” does it really matter? As you say yourself “(No more two part posts from you.) I don’t read them because they are utter rubbish”.
By the way, Canada with Harper at the helm is ranked 6th in the world by the Legatum Institute in its annual prosperity index. The Obamanation of the USA has slipped from the top 10 to #12. http://www.prosperity.com/Ranking.aspx
Take special note of where Canada ranks in PERSONAL FREEDOMS. Yes, it may surprise you. Then again these guys are professional analysts as opposed to NDPQ ‘Pravda Lite’ wannabe’s!!! ;)
PS what do you think about the Dow Jones dropping over 400 points in 2 days!!???!!? Obamania not!
Look at the cockroach! Skittering from one off-topic retreat to another. Babbling about the Dow Jones to distract attention from his own team’s criminality and fraud.
Hey Redintheface, you are aware of the ‘harper government’ tm, taking Canada down from sixth to tenth in the world for corruption rankings, aren’t you? Concall Harper and the gang are hard at work, you know, winning the fossil of the day award and others that have taken Canada down a few notches internationally.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/01/corruption-index-canada.html
As for Prescott. The evidence says Pierre Poutine used the same computer within 3 or 4 minutes of Prescott using it very, very late one night. If Prescott isn’t Poutine he knows who is, either way, he looks very guilty.
Actually G, Transparency International, the agency that rates corruption index includes in it’s ratings, federal, PROVINCIAL and MUNICIPAL actions. Yes, unfortunately, that includes Quebec. Quebec, home of the provincial judgeship buying and selling scandal. Quebec, home of the construction bribery scandal. Quebec, home to a NEW Montreal mayor scandal. Quebec, home to the Quebec Democratic Party… (the New one!!!). This is Harpers fault because……….? Ok, I give up!
See, every political entity associated with Quebec starts to reek after a while.
Even the brilliant Steven Harper couldn’t fix that quagmire.
Oh, and by the way, when you say “The evidence says Pierre Poutine used the same computer within 3 or 4 minutes of Prescott using it…” don’t you mean “of Prescott’s ‘password’ using it…”? Are you withholding pertinent to an Elections Canada investigation?
Is this ‘robocall’ scandalette really, as many believe, NDPQ dirty tricks?
No one thinks it was the NDP, and only a slithering redwiggler would come up with such a crazy idea with 0 evidence to back the claim.
Not as crazy as you might think. G mentions below “…there are NDP spies who sneak into conservative offices at 3 in the morning to use their computers.”. I think G should come clean and tell what he knows of NDPQ involvement.
See my latest Facebook post from the Vancouver Sun.
OTTAWA — Outdated legislation and light penalties make it challenging for Elections Canada to police fraudulent election calls, according to a discussion paper the agency has published seeking input for more effective rules.
The agency reports that its investigation into the “Pierre Poutine” robocalls that sent voters to the wrong poll in Guelph, Ont., on election day is ongoing, but concedes that there is only limited chance of Criminal Code charges resulting from that investigation.
The paper, released Wednesday, summarizes key points in the Guelph investigation but provides little new information about its probe of the 1,394 complaints about election calls from 234 ridings.
In addition to the Guelph calls, the paper acknowledges for the first time that Elections Canada has received complaints of harassing live telephones calls at odd hours from the United States.
These are described as “numerous, repetitive, annoying or sometimes aggressive live or automated calls, as well as calls made late at night, on a religious holiday or from American area codes, purportedly from candidates whose campaigns have subsequently often denied making the calls.”
Such deceptive calls appear to be prohibited by Elections Act clauses that forbid preventing voters from casting their ballots, but the structure of the law makes it difficult to enforce, the agency reports.
Even though the penalties for the breaking the elections law are light, investigators must follow the more onerous procedures required in criminal investigations.
This creates “a significant imbalance between these lengthy and cumbersome procedures and the small fines that may be imposed as a result of a guilty finding, thus limiting the deterrent effect of such a finding.”
In its last major prosecution, Elections Canada spent $2.3 million investigating and litigating against the Conservatives over the “in-and-out” scandal until the party eventually agreed to plead guilty to multiple charges, paying fines of only $52,000 while charges against four party officials, including two sitting senators, were withdrawn.
The maximum penalty under the act is a $5,000 fine and five years in jail or both, though no one has ever been jailed for an elections law breach.
Criminal charges would carry stiffer penalties, but the agency expresses doubt about the chances of successfully prosecuting under the Criminal Code instead of the Elections Act. It is unclear, for example, if a court would consider a harassment charge, which requires an intent to injure or alarm another person, the paper says.
A criminal mischief charge is also unlikely to stick because there is no sign of damage to property other than, possibly, electronic data, the paper says. And a charge of personation wouldn’t stand either, as it applies only to impersonations of a real person.
“The offence would not be applicable to a call or caller represented as ‘Elections Canada’, nor to a fictitious character such as Pierre Poutine,” the document says. Impersonating an Elections Canada official could be made illegal, the paper suggests.
It also suggests a requirement for telecommunications companies to retain all records from an election period and an extension of privacy law to political parties to address concerns about their handling of personal information used to track voters.
Any of these changes would require changes to federal law.
In a list of “investigative challenges,” Elections Canada cites some of the methods Poutine used to cover his tracks — disposable cell phones , Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) computer-generated calling, and proxy servers that help disguise his Internet addresses.
The document also lists the difficulty in obtaining court orders for third-companies to produce records as another hurdle, suggesting that Elections Canada investigators tried and failed to get production orders.
“Where complaints are based on the memory of witnesses or after-the-fact suspicion, the information may be insufficient as a basis for a production order to obtain evidence from a telecommunications firm.”
The time required to prepare, obtain and serve these requests for court orders can further delay the investigation, a further concern as telecommunications companies retain their records for only a short time.
In the investigation of the Guelph calls, lead investigator Al Mathews has filed nine separate “Information to Obtain” production orders or ITOs — sworn statements in which he lays out his suspicions.
Elections Canada cites the public nature of these court documents as a further concern.
“It is the discovery of one of these ITOs by Ottawa Citizen reporters that led to the influx of complaints and reactions in February 2012,” the paper says
It says the ITOs may harm the reputation of people mentioned, “even though the ITOs did not suggest that these persons or entities were a party to any wrongdoing.”
One of the parties named in the Guelph investigation — former Conservative political staffer Michael Sona — recently complained in interviews that his reputation was unfairly besmirched, first when a news organization reported that he was a suspect in the Pierre Poutine case, and then when investigators erred in a report about him in a court document.
Andrew Prescott, a Guelph Conservative campaign volunteer, has also publicly complained that his reputation has been tarnished by media reports and information in court documents that link an account he controlled with the account used by the Poutine suspect.
Sona has said that the password for that account was not secured, and may have been used by others. He complained that after he was fired by the party and identified in the media, many of his friends in the party turned away from him. He says he doesn’t intend to take the fall for something he didn’t do.
“You’ve got to take a look at the options and just say, you know what, what is the more realistic option here?” he told CBC.
“That some then-22-year-old guy managed to co-ordinate this entire massive scheme when he didn’t even have access to the data to be able to do this, or the alternative — that this was much more co-ordinated or possibly that there were people that knew how to do this, that it was being done?”
Several Liberal campaigns in tight races complained during the election that their supporters had received harassing calls purporting to be from Liberals, but Elections Canada did not investigate those calls until media reports raised public ire.
Elections Canada is now investigating those calls — some of which were traced to American telephone numbers — as well as calls where voters who had been identified as opposition supporters received calls directing them to the wrong polling stations.
“In a few cases, professional call centres have subsequently acknowledged that some electors were given erroneous information concerning their polling location based on inaccurate or outdated data,” the paper says.
smaher@postmedia.com
gmcgregor@ottawacitizen.com
-30-
Read more: http://www.canada.com/Legislation+makes+hard+bust+robocalls+Elections+Canada+reports/7514224/story.html
So now no laws were broken???
It’s funny when some things are juxtaposed… “It is the discovery of one of these ITOs by Ottawa Citizen reporters that led to the influx of complaints and reactions in February 2012,” WITH “Where complaints are based on the memory of witnesses or after-the-fact suspicion, the information may be insufficient as a basis for a production order to obtain evidence from a telecommunications firm.”
Or trumped up internet surveys.
Oh the huge manatee.
HAHAHAHA! Your desperation becomes more obvious with each incoherent comment you post!
If I didn’t revere democracy I would promise you that we will do to you what you have done to us. But I don’t want Canadian elections to fall into your sewer.
We’ll just wait until harper has fallen from power, open up an investigation into his crimes and sweep as many of you corrupt stooges into the net as we can. Your party of greed and perversity is going to be destroyed as a political force.
G, the subject is corruption. Speaking of corruption without speaking of Quebec would be like describing daylight without mentioning the sun!!!
As for illegal campaign contributions, you once again avoid any mention of the illegal and corrupt millions(?) of dollars the NDPQ were forced into paying back. Not only that, but the NDPQ did this for many years. They rewrote their financial books and in doing so missed the deadline for submission of campaign expenses. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but, have any Conservative members of parliament been charged, never mind convicted, of any illegal monies? Charged or convicted.
Corruption. Recent world standings. What relevance does a politician from 30 years ago, and a Lieberal scandal that, by I assume MERE coincidence, just happened to happen in (tum-ta-ta-tummmmmm) QUEBEC, have to do with either?
Buying and selling of judgeships. Mayor of Canada’s 2nd largest city resigns in scandal. Because they happen in Quebec they don’t count? Lieberal convicted of robo-calls. NDPQ taking corporate union money contrary to the, ahem, law. But for a $5 Foi charge we live under the most currupt federal regime evah?
Get a mitt, get in the game.
It was posted a very long time back. Some of the robo-calls came out of North Dakota. There was Front Porch Strategies of the U.S. There were two Americans Wenzel and Parker, who directly participated in 14 Conservative campaigns. Even the U.S. said. The robo-call cheat, was very sophisticated.
The Federal election was not democratic nor fair. The election was dirtied, fouled, corrupt and not even valid. Harper has no right to even live in Canada, let alone govern. Harper is a Traitor. Selling Canada to Communist China, is High Treason. Harper is using every dirty tactic in the book, to lie and cheat his way out of his election fraud. Harper is terrified he will lose his majority, he cheated so hard to get.
All dictators in the past and the present, cheated to win. Harper is no different than they.
It doesn’t matter to us. Harper cheated to win the election. Millions of Canadians say so. And, that is that.
Yup. As Gzap said, Canada is “tenth in the world for (anti)corruption rankings” and as I said…
Canada is NUMBER 1 ranked in the world for personal freedoms.
Then again, some folk are just bitter.
Yup, Harper took us down four points in the corruption rankings.
And don’t forget how far he’s taken us down in the freedom of information rankings.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canada-falls-out-of-top-fifty-in-global-freedom-of-information-rankings/article4364957/
As for Prescott, so you now admit it had to be either Prescott or someone he gave his password to. Which means its a conservative operative who was Pierre Poutine, doesn’t it? Unless you think there are NDP spies who sneak into conservative offices at 3 in the morning to use their computers.
And as for claiming no laws were broken, is that your way of admitting to the crimes but then calling them not crimes? That’s what it sounds like.
Ummmmm, no G. Quebec dragged us down. Harper wins awards and world rankings. The corruption also includes monies the new Quebec Demokratik Parti had to give back because they illegally took illegal money from unions. Millions? See THAT G is corruption. Not idle internet chatter. Why I don’t ever recall you mentioning that lil’ tidbit in our conversations on corruption! Corruption also includes ‘charity’ environmental profits like Fruitfly Cashzuki shilling for the Lieberal party at election time, CLEARLY illegal.
As for your difficulty in reading comprehension… an apology is owed an innocent man… where is the apology for the false accusations against Prescott? Why do you assume a password was given, after all you’ve provided an absolutely clear alternative explanation, which the RCMP are investigating coincidently!
One more thing that will help you in your understanding of english as a language… when someone says “So now no laws were broken???” it is a question, denoted with the use of a question mark ‘?’. It is not to be assumed this question reads as “claiming no laws were broken”. This is classic strawman arguement (look it up) creating your own arguement then argueing your point. The problem is you only argue with yourself. Not to worry tho’, you’re only second place right now! ;)
Hey redintheface.
Nice try blaming Quebec, the poll was a national one. And by the way, how long until that one reaches up to Ottawa, rumours I’ve heard have it going that way soon enough.
Your apology for Prescott? I hear that it moved to Kuwait.
What is your answer for the fact that the names of those who got illegal robocalls in Guelph match the names of non-conservative voters on the conservative CIMS database?
That means that until someone is pushed under the bus the whole party is guilty of aiding and abetting electoral fraud. They know it was someone in their party and they aren’t saying, they are colluding.
Does that include you? Are you also aiding in electoral fraud?
G, you really have to read your sources before you cite them!!!! FoI????? Har har har!!! As your OWN reference sez “While “cutting edge” 30 years ago, the law has not been significantly updated since its inception”. Looks like no governments have touched this issue since before you were born!!! Must be Harpers fault. After all he’s had a majority government for a full 1 1/2 of those 30 years!!!!!!
Seeing as how Lieberals, NDPQ, Bloc and Parti Quebecois have run the province for decades I’m not so sure the corruption in Quebec will reach “up to Ottawa”!!!! Ha ha!!!!
And still no mention of the millions (?) of dollars in corruption monies the new Quebec Democratskya Parti were forced to return to the corrupting unions!
Why the silence G? Just playing favourites?
redintheface, the ‘Harper Government’ tm has not changed any laws, true, but what they’ve done is made it harder to get FOI requests through. When was the last time a budget officer threatened to sue the government just to get the information that they are supposed to have?
How about the F35 and the lack of information and accountability there?
That’s going make adscam look like smaller then the envelopes Mulroney opened in hotel rooms so long ago.
Harper campaigned on open government, but has made a mockery of that claim. Just as he will shoot down any legislation that would bring accountability to the elections and might expose his fraudulent election.
The conservative party had a hand in the robocall scandal, and that will be the public perception until those cases are in the open or in court.
So your Harper “corruption” argument now dissolves into ‘its harder for Foi requests’. Cuz it now costs $5?
Then comes the ‘meat’ of your ‘proof’… the deflection!!! Accounting reporting methodology (F-35), a Lieberal scandal (adscam), and a politician from the last century from a rival political party!!!!!
Despite your redirection, lets get back to corruption…
How can you possibly talk about corruption without, even a single time, referring to the buying and selling of judges positions in the Quebec justice system? Or the resignation of the mayor of Canada’s 2nd largest city, Montreal, over (you guessed it) corruption allegations? Or the millions (?) of dollars in illegal campaign contributions to the NDPQ from big unions? Monies dating back many years, forcing the NDPQ to rewrite their financial books to accont for the paybacks.
It is a matter of record that the Harper government wins nonpartisan awards, recognition and world rankings. The NDPQ takes illegal, corrupt money.
What more needs said?
Very funny, redintheface.
You accuse me of deflection then spend most of your post talking about Quebec politics. If you are looking for illegal campaign contributions we have a couple of shining examples with the Harpies. And of course this is the party that has shown that crime pays, so it is to be expected. Since the conservatives were caught and fined for their in and out cheats, paid a fine and still made a profit, its to be expected that they are continuing in these ways now.
I’m sure they’ll make those Quebec contributions look minor, if Harper wasn’t busy making sure Elections Canada has no teeth.
Do you think there was an election in which Harper didn’t cheat?
Sorry, this response was mean’t to be here and not posted above.
G, the subject is corruption. Speaking of corruption without speaking of Quebec would be like describing daylight without mentioning the sun!!!
As for illegal campaign contributions, you once again avoid any mention of the illegal and corrupt millions(?) of dollars the NDPQ were forced into paying back. Not only that, but the NDPQ did this for many years. They rewrote their financial books and in doing so missed the deadline for submission of campaign expenses. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but, have any Conservative members of parliament been charged, never mind convicted, of any illegal monies? Charged or convicted.
Corruption. Recent world standings. What relevance does a politician from 30 years ago, and a Lieberal scandal that, by I assume MERE coincidence, just happened to happen in (tum-ta-ta-tummmmmm) QUEBEC, have to do with either?
Buying and selling of judgeships. Mayor of Canada’s 2nd largest city resigns in scandal. Because they happen in Quebec they don’t count? Lieberal convicted of robo-calls. NDPQ taking corporate union money contrary to the, ahem, law. But for a $5 Foi charge we live under the most currupt federal regime evah?
Get a mitt, get in the game
Redintheface:
The NDPQ did come clean and pay back any fines, so that makes them now clean, as opposed to corrupt as the Harper government who refuses to aid any investigation on any matter. But personally I think electoral fraud done on a national scale and large enough to have changed the outcome of the vote is even more worrisome. And corporate contributions to the Alberta con’s are way more troublesome, since they were designed not to be found, as opposed to the NDP contributions which were an honest mistake now rectified.
Say what you will about Quebec, but there are no charges that they cheat the democratic system to win. And I doubt you will find an issue that costs as much as $10 billion, as the F-35 scandal could.
The NDP, for instance, didn’t try to stop investigations into fraud in the courtroom, did they?
No G, it doesn’t make them “clean now” it makes them convicted offenders. It’s a shame that integrity can’t overcome your bias in calling illegal campaign contributions nothing more than “an honest mistake”. Pssst… hint hint… the fact they were clearly illegal negates the “honesty” defence.
As for your robocall fantasy, it’s just a fantasy G. Even one of the Clowncil of Canadians (CoC) cases has been tossed out because… gee whiz, a lady didn’t get to vote in a riding she DIDN’T LIVE IN!!!!!!!!! Isn’t that pathetic? Seriously. That the ONLY dingbat to claim she lost the opportunity to vote, amongst the law suit litigants, didn’t have a right to vote where she thought she did!!!
I just have to make note that no one, repeat NO ONE, has yet come forward showing they lost the opportunity to vote. Not a single, solitary, lone person. Makes mockery of the claim “electoral fraud done on a national scale and large enough to have changed the outcome of the vote”
Defend Quebec all you want, run a fool’s errand by yourself.
Oh, one more thing. The F-35 costs were amortized over a standard 20 year period. Canada’s excellent military gets about 35+ years of service life from their aircraft AND other equipment. The additional costs to the program were for their operations passed the 20 year period in their life expectancy. I know, I know, now you want me to explain why something should cost you money after you’ve already PAID for it… like 15 years of flying, repairing and upgrading avionics on a front line fighter. Hate to break it to you folk of the GreenLibDipp Alliance it ain’t free.
Oh redintheface, the difference between the NDP and the conservative financing scandals are twofold.
1) There was no attempt at subterfuge, just a mistake in understanding the regulations, but in the conservatives there has been shown to be intent to hide illegal financing, making it a known infraction. You can’t plead ignorance if you try hard to hide it. (ask Rob Ford).
2) The NPD came clean and paid the fines. The conservatives are pretending that incriminating evidence isn’t out in the public and still holding office instead of facing the charges honourably. More subterfuge.
One party is acting honestly, and one isn’t.
The robocall case has shown that the calls came from someone with high access to the conservative database and has been shown to have changed the outcome of the election. That’s fraud and fraud committed by someone in the conservative party. Their reaction? Stall, try to find technicalities to slow the court cases (400 pages for one and a technicality for another), once again they are not acting honourably.
They are acting like they are caught and trying not to admit it.
If they were innocent they could have released all the info to clear them, as the liberals and ndp did.
But they didn’t.
They are hiding something, aren’t they?
So let me get this straight. In the case of illegal union campaign contributions to the NDPQ is “just a mistake in understanding the regulations” that the “The NPD (sic) came clean and paid the fines.” and that makes them “One party (is) acting honestly”?
Are you serious?
Finally, without a SINGLE disenfranchised voter, it’s impossible for ‘robocall’ to have “been shown to have changed the outcome of the election.”
That’s a corruption of reality!
Hahahaha! Stupid redjeff! Just like a right-wingnut hack! Everyone knows your bloviating about the “illegal” donations from the nefarious “union bosses” is laughable garbage.
Unlike your convicted Conservatives, the NDP didn’t even try to hide their supposedly “illegal” activities. Unlike the Conservatives, the NDP didn’t think they were violating the Election Act and so sold those spots openly, whereas your Conservative Party skulks around in the dark of night, ashamed of their criminal intentions.
Hey, congrats redintheface, you got it.
Yes, the difference is one can be considered an honest mistake and one can’t. Glad you understand now.
As for this ‘single disenfranchised vote’ argument, its lame and wrong.
The fraud was making the illegal phone calls pretending to be elections canada and giving incorrect addresses out to non-conservative voters. Whether it was effective or not is besides the point, it was illegal to try to deceive the public.
And we do know it was effective because of the poll/study commissioned by the council of Canadians. So we know that the outcome of the election was changed through fraud committed by the conservative party or someone highly connected with them.
What surprises me is that you are defending this fraud?
Don’t you think any attempts to steal our democracy should be punished?
“an honest mistake”?????? Are you delusional?
What the NDPQ did over MULTIPLE election campaigns, involving NUMEROUS union groups, was to charge ridiculously high prices for said unions to ‘advertise’ themselves at the NDPQ conventions. Prices that were excessively above and beyond what would even reasonably be expected. In any nonpolitical circumstance this would be called MONEY LAUNDERING!!!!! Akin to the NDPQ producing a 5cent ‘E. Jack U. Layton Feel the Love’ commemorative pin and selling it to select ‘chosen’ unions for $100 each! With the unions buying 10,000 of them!
Regarding, as you so euphemistically describe it, the NDPQ “comeing clean”… this union/advertisement slush fund was only stopped AFTER an official letter of complaint was sent to Elections Canada by the Conservative Party. It would still be going otherwise.
As for your steadfast conviction of an internet poll/petition from a rabidly biased web site… hell, you think repetitive money laundering is an “honest mistake”.
Finally, again, without a SINGLE disenfranchised voter, it’s impossible for ‘robocall’ to have “been shown to have changed the outcome of the election.”
PS. Remember when the NDPQ was forced to, once again it seems, return dear dead Jack’s funeral donations to the non-existent ‘Ed Broadbent Institute’? Seems all the NDPQ do is money dodge these days. Quebec is a very appropriate home for them!!!!
Rabidly biased, redintheface?
Lets just end it there, since that runs as dictionary definition of hypocritical talk.
Or money laundering.
Tell us something redanus: How did the Conservatives find out about the advertising revenue?
Yep. Redjeff’s pathetic dissembling shows the weakness of the harpercons’ defenses in all their obviousness.
Tell us again how the NDP sent the robocall messages out through Jesus Prescott’s account! Har! Har! Har!
He’s following my template for right-wing kooks even!
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